More Electrical Gremlins - Le Mans

Today was one of those days you just wish you hadn't bothered taking the car out! In addition to the oil gauge 'failure' (earlier post), we also experienced a problem with the starter which I thought I had cured some time ago.

To explain, about 3 years ago my Le Mans starter was becoming increasingly 'lazy', and even with a newly charged battery could only turn the engine very slowly. Then, during one MOT, when typically the engine had been left running for much of the test, the starter would barely turn the engine at all but luckily it caught - it usually did! I changed the starter for a bosch recon unit (identical to what came off) and that resulted in a marked improvement - problem solved I thought....

Today, after negotiating the Lincoln lunchtime traffic/roadworks I stopped for fuel (therein lies another tale - more of below!); on starting the car after trying to get fuel into the tank the starter barely turned (this is the 'new' starter that has never exhibited this behaviour before), though it 'caught' after a couple of very reluctant turns. On returning home the starter behaved pretty much as normal on subsequent, repeated re-starting before putting the car away. All I can think is that this behaviour is related to a build up of heat in the engine bay - but I don't really see how that should restrict the starter from spinning freely?

Again I would welcome any advice/ideas anyone might have - is this fairly unique or a known issue?


On the fuelling issue, well, I couldn't get the pump to keep pumping fuel into the tank, and I know that the tank was little more than half full!

I have found these days that some pumps have extremely sensitive shut off mechanisms, and even with my day to day Megane I have struggled to stop the pump nozzle shutting off almost instantly - maybe they are badly set up to start with. As far as the Le Mans is concerned, there was a lot of heat build up around the tank area - I guess that's just the proximity of the radiator/ pipework etc. But even having let the tank vent for a minute or two the pump would still not pump for more than a second or two - the assistant snagged it anyway. Intending to back up to a different pump, that's when the engine only just started so I thought it better to get the car home so left having put just £4 of petrol in....!

Like I said, one of those days , but I guess that is all part and parcel of owning an Alpine. I'm just not that good at diagnosing electrical issues, and although I have the Alpine electrical manuals, they just show where everything is, but assume that you have the knowledge to test systems without any guidance! I do not, so any pointers or thought about the issues I have detailed would be most welcome.

Many thanks

Paul T

Paul, A couple of things spring to mind, check the robustness of your earths especially where the battery earth bolts to the body, and the earth strap from the chassis to the gearbox. Give that one a good pull as braided straps can look OK but almost fall to bits under mechanical pressure. I have actually fitted two extra braided straps across the rear engine mounts.
Also on the 12v side, there is connection box (part 362 in your manual) that would be worth disconnecting the cables, (dis battery first of course) cleaning with a brass brush, and reconnecting. This carries the 12v from the battery to the starter, and I think you will find a few other wires taken off it to feed 12v to other parts of the electrical system.
Connection 362 looks like it sits towards the back on the inside of the off side wheel arch ...... hope those last few words make sense.

Hi Paul,

The starter issue certainly sounds familiar to me but I’d always put it down to the battery itself but when the engine bay fans are running. Mine starts normally when things are not hot, when the fans are not running but if they are, it can be really sluggish for a couple of turns where I wonder if it is going to catch.

When I last fitted a new battery, I bought a high capacity thing that is a bit bigger than the “standard”. I also use a battery conditioner to keep things up to charge while the car is in the garage. This tells me the voltage across the terminals while it’s there. When new, this would be 12.7V or so. A few years down the line with some time out from the battery conditioner, it will now read 12.3 / 12.4 V when resting (engine off) but the conditioner tests show it to be good and strong.

I have connected this up while the fans were still running in the past and have noticed that the voltage drops when the fans are running, and can get very close to being just under 12V - at which point the starter can’t really do the biz in terms of starting the engine. If the fans are not running, there’s enough voltage reading for it to work fine. When the battery was new and showing 12.7V with the engine off, there’s plenty of headroom for the voltage drop when the fans are running and everything starts regardless.

These are just the symptoms that I’ve noticed (I realise there could be more going here!) but a solution for me was certainly a new battery and then maintaining it with a conditioner.

As far as I can tell if the fans are running, they should stop temporarily when the starter turns but I wonder if the very sluggish initial 2 or 3 turns of the starter are because of a moment or two while both are attempting run at the same time and when the fans go off, the starter then gets the juice it needs.

John, as ever, has given some excellent advice. Hopefully my experience of the roulette of whether the car will start after a hot petrol stop might also help.

It’s certainly no fun trying to bump start the thing when you’re on your own!

Jon

Jon, If you had posted your starting problems as indicated above here on this forum, I would have suggested you did exactly the same as I have suggested Paul does.


What I will say though is this. If you have a good battery and all the connections are tight and clean .... that goes for the 12v path, and the earth return .... whether your fans or some other reasonably power hungry accessories, like the headlights are working, the starter will turn over at a good speed and start the engine, clearly assuming you have ign and fuel.
If, on the other hand, with above accessories on, cranking becomes sluggish with a good battery, you have a bad, or a number of bad connections somewhere along the current paths.
Starting circuits on these cars are the most simplest of all, but the most affected by a bad connection due to their very high current drain.
I can almost guarantee that most members have never opened up and checked the connections in item 362 mentioned above,..... and look where it is situated capable of being splashed on a wet road, and close to the exhaust manifold where it is affected by continuous temperature variations which electrical connections do not like.
That connection box on the Atmo is in a much better place .... on the bulkhead above the gearbox ..... much more satisfactory. But every couple of years I remove the top, and check the tightness of the two nuts, and I can always give them a tweak as there will always be a very slight looseness with them ...... the reason is long winded which I will not go into, but trust me.
The other thing every DIY member should have is one of these:-



You would be surprised how dirty connections on battery pillars can cause a voltage drop just between the actual pillar and the cable clamp.
Which brings me to another point ..... when checking the voltage of a battery between say, lights on,lights off .... or whilst cranking, always do it by connecting the battery probes to the battery pillar, not the cable clamp. But if the cranking is sluggish, or lights are a bit dim, transfer the meter probes from the battery pillars to the cable clamps ..... you might find you have a lower voltage. if so, get your battery pillar come cable clamp cleaner, (pic above) clean reconnect and check again ..... you might be surprised.

John

Thanks John, and John.

All points noted, and I'm probably as guilty as many for not checking all the earths, and cleaning the battery terminals has usually been a quick wipe - so I need to be a tad more assiduous in paying attention to these in the future.

The battery is a higher capacity than standard (about 440 cca), but the constraint seemed to be the battery tray size as well as the physical space available for anything physically larger. I just couldn't find a higher capacity battery that would fit!

I also have to admit that I just don't use the car often enough - it can sit for months between excursions although I do charge the battery regularly and keep it disconnected when not in use. Not an excuse but I've just got too many 'irons in the fire' and the Le Mans has to take its turn for any attention!

Thanks once again,

Paul

The battery is a higher capacity than standard (about 440 cca), but the constraint seemed to be the battery tray size as well as the physical space available for anything physically larger.

Like you, I have found the main constraint is the design of the battery tray, and the fact that most batteries have "4 lips" around the base. What I do is, with a small hand plane, is plane the two offending one's off. You can use a pad saw but it is not so neat.

Yes I've done that too John, but I still have not been able to find a higher rated battery that is physically small enough to fit - even with some of the 'lips removed. I actually use a belt sander and then with a stanley blade for a 'clean' finish - cabinet scraper style! If you know of any make of battery that is correct size, higher capacity that would be useful. Our old Megane had/has a 565 cca battery and it sits right by the engine - that would make a difference I'm sure!

Paul

Paul - I use a Type027 as the footprint is the same as standard so it should slot straight in, no need to bend any tabs on the tray. All have a lot more cold cranking power than your 440 cca and about 70 odd quid -

570 cca - http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/D15-VARTA-63A ... 3f2c13f95d

But you can go higher on the same footprint e.g. 640 cca -

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Exide-Premium ... 4d1311d5b4

I bought the Bosch Silver S5 as they've got a good reputation, bit lower at 610 cca, but still a fair bit more than normal:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Type-027-63Ah ... 43c15914f5

Hope that helps. With the extra distance to the rear of the car you can't beat an extra bit of oomph.

I'd check the earth strap though at the battery where it joins to the chassis. It lies in a gulley under the battery and is connected via a bolt (next to a drain hole and where leaves and crud collects).

You need to undo it completely to check the surfaces are ultra-clean, in my case the thread had corroded to the point where I couldn't get it to tighten. It's an awful location for it if you really look at it. I relocated it to the front suspension turret instead. It's probably not as neat, but I moved it there years ago and it's worked well.

Thanks for the feedback.

On mine, the fans kicking in are the only thing that might affect starting. I will check that master connector in the rear wing and maybe it's the fans that have the dodgy earth.

Jon

I will check that master connector in the rear wing

And whilst you are under there it would be a good time to check the starter cable connection to the starter.

Paul - I use a Type027 as the footprint is the same as standard so it should slot straight in, no need to bend any tabs on the tray. All have a lot more cold cranking power than your 440 cca and about 70 odd quid -

570 cca - http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/D15-VARTA-63A ... 3f2c13f95d

But you can go higher on the same footprint e.g. 640 cca -

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Exide-Premium ... 4d1311d5b4

I bought the Bosch Silver S5 as they've got a good reputation, bit lower at 610 cca, but still a fair bit more than normal:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Type-027-63Ah ... 43c15914f5

Hope that helps. With the extra distance to the rear of the car you can't beat an extra bit of oomph.

I'd check the earth strap though at the battery where it joins to the chassis. It lies in a gulley under the battery and is connected via a bolt (next to a drain hole and where leaves and crud collects).

You need to undo it completely to check the surfaces are ultra-clean, in my case the thread had corroded to the point where I couldn't get it to tighten. It's an awful location for it if you really look at it. I relocated it to the front suspension turret instead. It's probably not as neat, but I moved it there years ago and it's worked well.

Thanks for the links Darren - very useful. I presume that you have a slightly modified battery tray (front and possibly side lip removed or flattened)? My tray is 3cm shorter than the 027 battery length so next step modification .... think I might buy an Exide 640.

Paul T

Hi Paul.

No should be standard fit - 243L x 175W x 190H - I'll get a picture if you like, but from memory all the tabs on the tray are still as they left the factory.

Here's a reference with all the different options -
http://www.battery2u.co.uk/ALPINE-GTA-Petrol-86-90/

(Good price for the Exide at £56.48 too)

027 are 15mm taller than the 075 but that's it really. Other than that there's not much difference, I've used both in the past.


Do check those earths and connections though!

Hi Paul.

No should be standard fit - 243L x 175W x 190H - I'll get a picture if you like, but from memory all the tabs on the tray are still as they left the factory.

Here's a reference with all the different options -
http://www.battery2u.co.uk/ALPINE-GTA-Petrol-86-90/

(Good price for the Exide at £56.48 too)

027 are 15mm taller than the 075 but that's it really. Other than that there's not much difference, I've used both in the past.


Do check those earths and connections though!

Hi Darren,

Maybe there were two different versions of the battery tray - my car is a 1990, and the tray is definitely 21cm long, lip to lip. I also have a brand new one - same size. There is only one part number in the catalogue so I am intrigued. Anyway, I am going to make a new tray from stainless steel, large enough for an 027 type battery.

Cheers,

Paul

Could well be the case. So many detail variations over the years, plus yours is a Le Mans spec so very late.

I'll check when I get a moment as to whether the tabs on mine have been removed. It may just be that it overhangs the ends. Certainly it's the width that holds it in place as you have to slot the back of it (nearest the screen) in place under the tab before you lower the other side and drop it in - if that makes sense.

If not, first pass, I'd try getting a wrench and seeing if you can bend the tabs a bit to lose the length restriction. The clamp and width tabs will still hold it firm.

Good luck. That Exide at £58 delivered is a bit of a bargain.

Could well be the case. So many detail variations over the years, plus yours is a Le Mans spec so very late.

I'll check when I get a moment as to whether the tabs on mine have been removed. It may just be that it overhangs the ends. Certainly it's the width that holds it in place as you have to slot the back of it (nearest the screen) in place under the tab before you lower the other side and drop it in - if that makes sense.

If not, first pass, I'd try getting a wrench and seeing if you can bend the tabs a bit to lose the length restriction. The clamp and width tabs will still hold it firm.

Good luck. That Exide at £58 delivered is a bit of a bargain.

Just ordered the Exide (640ah - 027TE) - can't find a better value battery with that spec anywhere else. I could modify the existing tray but I think I'll just make a bespoke version out of 16g stainless - I never was a stickler for originality! Hope I notice the difference, though with almost a 50% increase over my existing battery I'll be surprised if I don't!

Thanks for the advice and links - that's saved a bit of searching!

Paul