Renix / Fenix ecu's my journey, next steps with the jigsaw..

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Hence, doesn’t have a real representation of engine air mass flow demands, and this causes issue the higher the boost pressure is raised. So say I am driving, and I have 15psi, I can change the throttle position, obviously change the airflow, the turbo maintains the same MAP pressure, but the Renix can't compensate as the temp has not changed, so it delivers the same fuelling.

...against engine RPM though. At first glance there shouldn't a difference but presumably this is a nice real world example of static vs total pressure

Hi Martin,

I haven't looked into it that deeply, just what I observed tuning on the road, and the effect I was getting. However, you are probably right, but I wasn't changing rpm, certainly not to the extent I would move map load points. In the end I set the fuel calibration to WOT, and accepted the increased richness if throttled back. The turbo don't forget is a great closed loop feedback device as it sits either side of the engine input and output, and it will very effectively maintain a load point - enthalpy and mass flow. In other words, I gave up on it

Smiles,
Martin

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Right, a bit more progress, but loads to do. Following this thread, well fundamental to it, has been trying to get a Fenix 3A ecu to work with it, and in a turbo application well. I think I'm now getting much closer.

http://www.renaultalpineownersclub.com/ ... 9&start=15

Bits related to this topic also on here:

http://www.renaultalpineownersclub.com/ ... &start=255

Anyway, there have been a number of issues to sort, and I'm working my way through them. I rather cornered my options when I built the arrangement with NTC air and water sensors, and the throttle body from a 24V n/a. However, I have persisted out of spite... I now have 5 off Fenix 3A boards baselined (various source cars modified to run the V6 than the usual R19 etc 4 cylinder donars) with slight PCB and component value changes around a theme, and I have been doing A-B-A testing to work back and forth with what makes any changes, and those things I simply can't detect the effect.

One of the issues was just going off idle the engine would bog down badly, and then pickup and scream off nicely. The bogging down I put down initially to the fuel pressure sense signal, and delta p change and this got me to the point where it would pick up and go, but still not completely clean. I had taken all the fuelling out of the bottom end, so it wasn't in the main map tables. At this point I was beginning to pull my remaining hair out in frustration ... until I hooked up my XR25 link and started looking at what the ecu thought it was seeing... and then bingo.. the software coefficients switch at 14% throttle opening and the injector duty cycle was being forced to 100% for that brief time. This meant the engine had excessive fuelling it needed to clear before it could pickup and go.. you can see the jump in values in the injection timing with the TB opening below – swing the TB to WOT rapidly (and yes the engine does happily rev up to 8k rpm ) :



Disconnecting the throttle pot and this issue is cleared, as below, same swinging the TB to WOT rapidly, ignore the throttle pot trace as it's just a mid-point reference:



I tested this on the road, and up to 3.5k rpm, amazing difference, and then hit a big dead spot in the mid-range, and this needs some more work, but I suspect that without the pot signal the mid-range fuelling is completely a skew as one of the major input coefficients to the mass-flow load algorithm is missing, this will need some fiddling yet…. So more to come… Next post TomK’s D502 ecu.

Hi Andrea,

Glad to see you are back on the Fenix 3A did you keep the knock sensor fitted last time when you were running on your turbo? Can I ask if you could kindly send me those bin files again, and the 25 phase 2 file was it that you thought was a better starting point for forced induction over the n/a bins? I would really appreciate it - lost in my crashed hdd... I’m back to the blue turbo car now the engine is re-assembled…
Martin

This Fenix 3A will be for the atmo friend car, in this case i think we'll just need to tweek VE and timing table, and rpm... and with Fenix 3A is knowed where to and enought !

Yes, on my turbo engine i have the knock sensor installed, the 2 from the safrane biturbo originals. With the Fenix 3A i used just one of them.
If you remember, now i was running with a Fenix 3A of a R25, but with a BIN of R25T 205cv wich is Fenix 3B, inside,and remapped. It works good BUT i'm quite sure it uses different settings for temperature sensors, cause it works good just in the summer and in winter is really difficult to start it and it does not make a cold enrichment. This is why i went to megasquirt... it start well in cold and hot now, but i'm having some difficult time to map it and behave "round" like the Fenix !

I have also the original Safrane Biturbo Fenix 3B, this would be great to use and perfect for me, 2 knock input, low imp. injector out, but the code is eprom locked and i really don't find anywhere HOW to unlock in the eprom or making a modify to the ecu board... i'm really not able to make it boot. Has anyone idea how to unlock this Fenix 3B ? I asked to peoples in France, but they send me just a photo of a modify of a LATE fenix 3B wich was little different then mine
I send you the files and bin again, let me know!

Hi Andrea,

I hope you still drop by... looking for some help and clarification on the 3A.

Right, many years back I bought a Siemens Fenix 3A ecu - S101260101 from R25 V6 n/a non-cat, with a 330A ver 04 BIN from MacFly Electronics at the early stages of my F50 project.

Now Philippe stated that this was setup for the following:

throttle pot
mixture pot
idle valve
NTC sensors
3 bar MAP sensor

I wanted to check with you whether you ran your installation with NTC sensors or you used PTC - water and air temp sensors?

Do you have an original OE bin file on the same 330A software version - address 04h? Reason I ask, is the S101260101 is stated in the MRINJR manual PTC sensors not NTC.. so there must be some difference, and not just SIL resistors?

I would also like to compare the PCB electronics with mine, as I have some looked at a few of these boards with various differences, especially around RC16, and D37 positions.

Any help and insights would be great, as indeed a high res picture of your S1012600101 pcb would also be great!

Many thanks,
Martin

Hello Martin !
here a pair of quick photos of a 3A i have here. i have 2, one with eprom socket, still in use in the atmo car now, and this one with the same renault code. when i was using the 3A i run the original red throttl pot. i am still using this kind of throttle pot too on my megasquirt setup.
i am quite sure i'm using PTC now on this 3A, while on the renix1 i have also i was using NTC.
This ECU has narrowband o2 input, i setup the innovate wideband controller LC1 NB (0-1V) output to the renix input, and... magic it worked we saw the lambda go to 14,7:1 and keeping it. good thing is that from the LC1 i can change this value, making different curve output of his 0-1volt, keeping the true wideband signal as reference.

Morning Andrea,

Thanks for the feedback, and that's great

Right, to verify, I presume you are connected to ecu pins 35 and 17 (0v ref) for you LC-1 “NB Lambda” input, is that correct?

My 3A boards are populated as your board, I have seen some changes to the SMT resistors and transistors on the back, but from what I have traced, related to additional I/O such as aircon etc. Hence, we can talk the same board which is great.

Now, I have changed the resistor fitment for the idle pot, as I found I was not getting 0-100% value swing (I am using a pot, and not using a NB lambda or 0-1V equivalent input – I can do the same with my LM-1), but this is probably not relevant to you using a NB equivalent feedback signal as input. I will detail the changes in the ecu thread when I'm happy I have got the necessary arrangement finalised, nearly there on that one.

If you have a Fenix 3A running in an atmo car, then try this mod with a switch and let me know if you feel any changes when the car is driving, particularly throttle response on / off from idle - fit an IN4148 into D30 on a switch, and try with it switched in and then out. I have seen changes to the injection duty cycle on the scope, but haven't been able to try on the road and put it through the "seat of pants" test. You will find the current vacant location down by the two thin long red SIL resistor packages. Give it a go and let me know how you get on, thanks.

Talking SIL resistor what numbers do you have on yours, look on my post earlier you will see my numbers?

Right, sensors, the D501 is PTC, the 330A base firmware I am using in my Fenix 3A I am currently trying to sort out on the blue turbo GTA is NTC sensors. I have tried R25ph2 205hp software on the board as fitted and setup, and it doesn't read the NTC sensors correctly. So which BIN are you running on the Fenix 3A in your atmo car?

Great to share!

Thanks,
Martin

Ok, so following on from Sunday's chat outside the RatCave Martin.....

How many correction factors are there in the normal GTA ECU setup? I'm just curious. Obviously it adds a whole extra dimension in what you've now discovered the ECU will adjust and compensate for (still staggering that it can do so much utilising such little memory) but likewise where does that fit in alongside the likes of Emerald, Adaptronic etc? Do they perform any basic corrections eg for voltage - you mentioned it had a direct impact on injector duration so is there similar in the 3rd party standalone ECUs?

Ok, so following on from Sunday's chat outside the RatCave Martin.....

How many correction factors are there in the normal GTA ECU setup? I'm just curious. Obviously it adds a whole extra dimension in what you've now discovered the ECU will adjust and compensate for (still staggering that it can do so much utilising such little memory) but likewise where does that fit in alongside the likes of Emerald, Adaptronic etc? Do they perform any basic corrections eg for voltage - you mentioned it had a direct impact on injector duration so is there similar in the 3rd party standalone ECUs?

Darren,

Besides the main Ignition (CARTA) and Fuel tables (CARTI) detailed above there are 12 other trim tables that I'm now working with in 255 byte paged address space occupied by the PROM address - $100h to $1FFh. The actual firmware was written directly in assembler to keep the code very compact and as fast execution as possible is very neat and compact and is stored in the MPU ROM address space $F000 to $FFFF ie. 4k bytes!! 4k bytes are running your car in a GTA turbo - I bet you can't even write your name in 4k in Word in MS. That's incredible when you think it has knock sensing, ignition roll back, idle speed regulation, and transient fuel enrichment to name a few. Yes it's real basic, but it gets the job done- modern fine electronic control, larger resolution maps, and serious quantities of code and processor speeds exceeding the 1MHz internal clock by over a factor of 20 at least for the boggo stuff still hasn't put the Renix 1 with appropriate mods to shame.

So the trims (put in the familiar terms for the later versions of the ecu):

TABS - rpm break points, not present in the Renix 1 ecu (or rather the PROM address range ie can be changed), and believe they are fixed in the firmware, I gave the values previously. This may be considered an issue in that you can't "re-bunch" the available load lines to suit the new engine characteristic i.e. put the smaller rpm step points around your critical engine characteristic transition points e.g. induction tuning, cam performance characteristics, turbo spool etc; but as it turns out this isn't a problem as DG noted, the turbo PRV engines all fall into a similar rpm range / transition characteristic, so not such a big issue - the turbo is an extremely effective lever in terms of the engine tuning being more about feeding heat and flow to the turbine than the engine parameters per se, with the compressor wrapping around the engine as a closed loop feedback system.

REGMAX - peak rpm cut, this is a brick wall with the Renix 1 at 6200 and is not adjustable. Working on an electronics solution to this...
REGREP - rpm point injection cuts back in after a REGMAX event, as above... adjustable in the later ecus ie LeMans, R21, R25ph2, R19, A610, BiSaf, etc...
TABZC - determination of the critical zone for knock, used with the level sensitivity table per rpm band - present in the Renix 1 and critical.
TBATA - ignition advance correction (trim table) with intake air temperature - present in the Renix 1 and critical for highly tuned engine.
TBATE- ignition advance correction (trim table) with water temperature - present in the Renix 1 and critical for highly tuned engine.
TBAVR - idle speed regulation through advance control correction with water temperature. If you disconnect the idle value, the engine idle speed is maintained at the desired set point by this trim table, and you will hear the engine speed hunting up and then back down as it resets. it's pretty basic, doesn't hold the engine speed like an ironing board that modern day standards expect, but it keeps it running close to where it needs to be and doesn't stall...
TRRDEM - effectively idle valve control with water temp.
TBDEM - starter injection / fuelling trim table - big injectors need to set this one or will have flooded starts.
TBBAT - injection duty cycle trim with battery voltage / condition - as you mentioned above Darren, change injector characteristics (type, impedance etc) then this will need to be modified or the fuelling could easily be a long way out and even prevent starts and re-starts both hot and cold engine.
TABA - correction of fuelling post warm-up - this is critical as I have found, along with the next one (trim table).
TABB - correction of ignition advance post warm-up.
TPPRS - acceleration enrichment, driven by the delta change of pressure at the MAP sensor and water temp.
TBISO - duty cycle correction of the idle speed - control loop period against water temp. Not changed it...
TRMIN - idle speed control valve minimum opening against water temp.

As to the aftermarket ecus, yes they do have these corrections, or equivalents that can be setup to perform the same functions or achieve the same results. Some are better than others, and comes down to what you want to achieve. I guess more of the issue is knowing what values to put in the various tables, than necessarily how many, how versatile, and the degree of resolution achieved. An engine can be pretty tolerant of mixture variations and make the same power putting emissions to one side, well certainly in turbo forced induction (well pump gas than methanol for example), less so on ignition timing however. Hence, you can tune and run an engine more than adequately with an ecu with somewhat less sophistication than modern technology, just understand the compromises. On example of this point, all the later OE ecus from the Fenix 3A (R25 atmo), LeMans, and R25 turbo ph2 ecu onwards all had the addition of closed loop lambda control for idle speed as an improvement towards fuel economy and more importantly emission regulation compliance.

IMO if you know how the basic engine responds, and have built up the necessary experience of it, then you should get a good result on almost any ecu, simply by the fact that if a bit of code 4k long on an 8 bit processor can crack it, then anything after that should do better!

Does that answer your question?

Cheers,
Martin

Yes - amazing detail as ever Martin.

oh and 24K to write my name and save to a word file.

I have S100802101J (2.5 V6 Turbo ?)

Yep, this is a D501 ecu, and of an early calibration setting - 112, one of my list

Good point if anybody does have one that is not on my list, then given opportunity to read it out, I will upgrade them to the latest OE calibration... So there you go peeps a chance to upgrade!

Cheers,
Martin

My next strategy was to find as many of the GTA D501 ecu’s that I could and see if the calibration values had changed over the production years, and indeed they did. I know of and have the following OE production data calibration settings: earliest first 111B, 111F, 112F, 211D, 311, 501, 601 (there were little tweaks between them). You can check which one you have by looking for the number on the little white sticker on top of the PROM chip.

Bump... come on chaps, anybody out there in the multiverse got anything different than those listed above?? Come in 401... did it exist, now there's a mystery?? Likewise, anybody else out there got the S1007233008B version of the MPU (processor big 40 pin chip in the middle of the board). The A has been in every ECU I have had except the one... may be there were some proto MPU's out there, do you have one? ... may be I should be watching Crime Watch...

Love it!

Right ECU's out for the Lad's. I'll show you mine if you show Martin yours

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Hey Friend,

Glad to see that my FenixViewer helps fine.
I was browsing and I came across this great site.
And I find your post!
I've registered and I have to make my presentation to follow.
I see you've really progressed, no doubt

Kind regards
Philippe

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Hi Philippe!

Great to see you here, pictures of all the cars and projects are on here. Yes your viewer, especially the data capture has been very useful with the Fenix 3A (S101260101) - I could then understand the problem with the throttle response, the final solution is still iluding me however, as the engine decided to let go on me before I could test my final "kludge"-, and with your updates to include the S101100108A/106B that will be a great help than flying blind if I give up on the 3A, and if not I could do with some help on the 3A

The kludge I was trying to get to work, was offsetting the throttle pot input with some pull up resistance inserted in one of the positions on the board, I forget the number, but can easily check, it is there for that purpose normally unpopulated in the pcb. Hence, force the throttle closed point (mechanically), signal past the electronic closed value (above 14%; interrestingly I found that there were 3 or 4 throttle % trip points from memory, need to look at my notes - with direct impact on injection and timing with no other parameters changed), and without modifying the gain bit (y=mx + c stuff as you know well), as it messes the fuelling in the mid-range. I don't think it's the best solution, but one I could effect, and get more understandable timing correlation from my tables. I have rather got to the point where l just want it to work, and know if it doesn't where I need to go to make changes, and what type of changes so that it does.. reverse engineering for no real net gain, in an interested minority of probably just me is less fun than being billy no mates!

So what is new with you? How's your 5GTT proect coming along?

Kind regards,
Martin

Hello Martin,

Yes, I am here, it is important for me to know how my software is being used.
In your case, it serves to focus your engine, and I'm delighted!
In addition, in the hands of an expert, it's exciting.
I'll put this site in my links on the dedicated page.

R5GTT project is in little stand by at the moment,
I would resume in May the development of this machine.

Kind regards
Philippe

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Rumbled... phb77... so come on you had better fess up about having a GTA Eurocup, managed to keep that very secret Mr. Quillon LOL... the man of many masks... how long have I know you and never mentioned it once... ???

alpine-gta-europacup.forumperso.com/t172p345-remise-en-route-de-mon-alpine-gta-europa-cup....

Think you need to appease yourself and post up some pictures and the story

Smiles,
Martin

You should have spoke to me about this.

I converted a Renault 25 V6 ECU into a mappable version using the Fastchip pc software years ago. I made a modified throttle pot plate so I could use an Omex 0-5v throttle pot on the D-Drive spindle as the R25 used a 5v pot, and had Fastchip put a basic map into it. It worked fine on my GTA, but it was a bit cumbersome to map while driving.

They fitted a new rom socket so the chips could be removable.

Also, had to have a boss made for the coolant temp sensor, to fit the decent and reliable R25 coolant sensor into.

Didnt require any modifications to the original GTA wiring loom.

If you email Fastchip in the Netherlands and send them a R25/Espace V6 ECU they can do the same. The throttle pot plate and boss you'd have to get made yourself.

Or, simply go to Fastchip, and they can map it fully for you on their dyno on this ECU.

Or best case scenario, someone with a Lemans ECU, send it to Fastchip for them to copy the map, and then upload that directly in the R25 rom.

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Hi David,

Yes this may be an option &/or turn into one. The Fenix deal was more about learning the details myself as a challenge, having done so in the past with the Marelli ecus, but l think I have found that I have less time than before to embark on these things coupled with minimal support on the Fenix 3A left me frustrated - note I'm talking the utilisation of the 3A for high boost, than low boost or n/a both of which I have had working fine. I have now ditched it (for F50 ) and gone back to a Renix 1setup that I can modify most of the tables present and know what they do in big handfulls.

What would be useful to know, given your experiments with the op-amp circuit for changing the MAP sensor output, did you find the minimum voltage limit the software would accept as a valid barometric range? Hence, if I go to a 2.5 bar MAP sensor will I get away with it?

Regards,
Martin