Martin’s PRV bone yard…

Well I think that a lot of the cost is in time of course but also hardware. Having been an Alpine owner for 8 years now I've accrued a lot of that over time which helps. Exhaust, charge cooler, rad/fans, mangnecore leads, fuel pump and suspension were all bought over time but all essential to the cause before any of Martin's work is carried out.

Martin is also particularly clever at matching the spec of each component so that you get a whole outcome without compromising what your trying to achieve. For example buying a big turbo is absolutley no use unless your injectors/heads/valves/cam can cope with the size of turbo your applying to it.

In saying anyone can do it he is of course technically correct but the hours spent, determination and imagination are being woefully undersold.

Well that's how it seems to the muso anyway

Thought you should all see this:



I love the synchronised disappearing act at the end of the run

Faulks enthusiasm breaks the walls!!!! Can't wait almost for mine!!!

huge respect Martin

Faulks enthusiasm breaks the walls!!!! Can't wait almost for mine!!!

huge respect Martin

.
Thanks Chris, and yes it will be great getting yours sorted, as hopefully that will take things on to the next generation on the 12V.

I have been looking to see results to compare the result on JonV's 350hp 2.5ltr, dyno plots and have a look-see if there was any interesting information to share. Interestingly, that would have been equivalent to DG's (for ART) Stage 6!!! LOL - why the other 5 stages(?)... I think it's a stage 2..

http://www.renaultalpineownersclub.com/ ... 2&start=15

There are various reads and results, but nothing that I could directly compare. Jon's is OE 2.5ltr bottom end, the rings are a bit tired, the liner heights were a bit like the New York skyline, and the heads a tad warped, so all in all I actually thought the result was a bit of a miracle given it's certainly not a blue-print build by any stretch of the imagination!

So how does it compare, well in single turbo 2.5ltr I couldn't find a results anywhere near it, which is a pity I think, as there simply can't be enough people out there willing to give it a go...

So for your amusement, various discussion threads:

Much talk never got close:
http://www.renaultalpineownersclub.com/ ... &start=105

http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/archiv ... 26523.html

GRAHAM WALLIS17th August 2005, 10:48 AM
Hi Ariston,
a few people in the club have turboed the V6.
One bloke has a twin turbo 2.8 ltr PRV V6 putting out 180 kilowatts at the wheels. Oddfire has a 2.8 ltr PRV V6 and is converting it from a single turbo to a twin turbo. Brendan Calder has a 2.664 ltr PRV V6 single turbo on gas putting out 150 kilowatts at the wheels. Before Brendan turboed the V6 he has a supercharged V6 in a 505 which was also impressive.
All these cars are 505s.

Andrew
Just to clarify things (and to use US terminology) these cars all run on propane.
Graham

Here for reference:
http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/attach ... 1091846125

http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/attach ... 1091846393

Reference: http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=15361
http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/archiv ... 15645.html

... puts it at 240hp... bit weak really

That makes Will's look impressive on a single turbo and all OE including the Renix 1 ecu, no charge cooler, mods were limited to a pair of MF stage I cams and a matching turbo, and that punched out 275hp and probably more as the 240cc injectors were limiting... here.. and I would call that a true stage 1, (DGs Stage 4)..

http://www.renaultalpineownersclub.com/ ... highlight=

Stephen Dell:
Quote:
Stephen...you say that 280bhp is widely accepted as the ceiling on turbos


One of the main factory tuners (Danielson) could not break the 280bhp ceiling on the A610 even by adding twin turbos. They had set what they believed to be an unambitious target of 300bhp which surprisingly they could not achieve and that is the reason why there was no A610 Danielson or Danielson II.

The most powerful GTA with original manifolds in this country is probably the ex Prima car with 500+ NM torque. We have now seen the power plots and there is a freefall in the power curve again at 280 bhp.

Quote:
You say that 330bhp is possible on the atmo....what you mean is the factory team achieved this....when you say mega bucks you may well mean it!!!!!


Probably but still mostly basic mods that could be carried out by most 'old school' tuners. Bigger valves, porting, raised compression and crappy Lucas mechanical injection.

Quote:
If I had limitless money to spend on the turbo engine I'm sure that an engine builder could come up with the necessary manifolds, race cams, football sized turbo and other add ons to achieve well over 330bhp......


Yes that is probably true. The Danielson guys admit that with revised turbos and manifolds they could have achieved the 300bhp target. However they decided that the necessary development and parts costs would be uneconomical. I suppose the proof of the pudding will be Tony Smiths output from his 3.0 turbo and whether he can break the 280 'limit' retaining the existing manifolds.

I think that most people would agree that the best way to obtain big power on a PRV is to dump the existing manifolds and fit twin turbos, preferably starting with the 24V engine. The engine management is also a big deciding factor. This would have been a very costly barrier in the late 80's and early 90's and is now easily and relatively cheaply achievable

Reference:
http://www.renaultalpineownersclub.com/ ... 2ff00cc949

More bumping gums below, good on hot air, but nothing making black lines when it wheel spins in a straight line!
http://www.renaultalpineownersclub.com/ ... sc&start=0

Blast from the past:

David Gentleman9th December 2004, 08:55 AM
Im doing something similar, but in an Alpine GTA. Its only 1080Kgs, and ive taken out the old 2.5 evenfire 8.6:1 turbo block, and replaced it with the 2.8 even fire 9.5:1 Renault block, but still using the turbo setup and ancillaries. The bigger engine has larger valves and far better cam profiles than the turbo (turbo 8-40-40-8) (2.8L 14-57-50-19) so more overlap, but im only going to be running around 6-8 pounds on a .63/AR EX / 57trim T4 turbo.
Im going to be trying to improve on the standard management, or switch to something like the Wolf 3d system.

Manifold wise, may do a bit of a change around, and move the turbo down low in front of the crank pulley using off the shelf equal length manifolds for a normally aspirated Alpine and link the two together to a common turbo flange. This will bring the turbo as low as the bottom of the engine, reducing heat, massively shortening the exhaust system (remember the engine is at the back) and increase flow through the larger bore manifolds, as exhaust gas speed wont really be a problem due to the high compression ratio.

BTW, I have a pair of V6 turbo manifolds, link pipes and turbo flange spare for sale £100 for the lot. I can arrange international shipping if any body is interested. The design brings the turbo up over the top rear of the engine.

http://i5.ebayimg.com/01/i/02/f1/cc/79_1_b.JPG

... so come on John Law get it done!

Reference Aussie Frogs 2004: http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/archiv ... 15361.html

So the best rival I can see is Alan Moore's 610 3ltr, and haven't been able to find the result, so post it up, what did you get?

Alpine GTA V6 Turbo
The Renault Alpine A610 also had the 93mm sleeves. I bought a set of these recently from Renault in Australia. They were sitting in a warehouse in Melbourne. I don't know what they were doing here. I expect they were wrongly ordered for a Laguna, but they are the correct part No. for the A610.

I bought a Volvo B280E motor (760GLE) from the wreckers, that had a small burn on top that really only damaged the wiring mostly for $500 I think. Internally it was in excellent condition, and must have had minimal Klms.

I am in the process of building a reasonable engine for the GTA, but it won't be cheap. Chances are I could buy quite a good 205 Mi16 for the same money, and that is with me doing most of it myself. The heads are away now. I did the portwork myself. Using the Renault heads with Volvo valves and cams. 2975cc 8.6 to 1 13 Lb boost, hopefully without detonation.

It is currently 2450cc 8.6 to 1 11 Lb boost although the boost drops off above 5000 Rpm as the turbo is too small. The Volvo has 10mm longer stroke and it will have 2mm oversize bores to 93mm (A610). The Volvo cams have approx 1.5 mm more lift at the lobe, and I will be using these.

Loom $250
Motec M48 $2000
B280E Motor $500
R25 Turbo Motor $950
Ball Bearing Turbo $1800
Headwork, Big Seats,Springs $700
Balancing $230
A610 Pistons& sleeves $1800
Exhaust+Coating $500
Uprated clutch $500
Water pump $160
Gaskets&Seals $230
Tuning $400
Plat Plugs $100
Injectors S/H $300
Bearings & conrod sizing $250

$10 670

And I am sure there are things I have forgotten, or that will come out more expensive. And in the end it will just look like a standard motor, barring perhaps the turbo, but even then only if you have one to directly compare it against. Hopefully the difference will show up on the road. Last edited by alan moore; 21st October 2005 at 05:29 PM. '56 Renault 750 (16TS Power)
'89 Renault Alpine GTA V6 Turbo

Growing old is inevitable
Acting your age is optional

Reference: http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showth ... 361&page=3

So there you go onwards and upwards, stage 2+ and stage 3

[stephendell]

We need to get all the finished modded motors out at Bruntingthorpe on the same day and run them all head to head with the racelogic timing gear strapped on.

For a benchmark target for the others Mr Viola should hit 0-60 in 4.5s and 160mph within the first mile on a dry day. I think he'll be hard to beat.

Should be fun...Roll on Summer!!

We need to get all the finished modded motors out at Bruntingthorpe on the same day and run them all head to head with the racelogic timing gear strapped on.

For a benchmark target for the others Mr Viola should hit 0-60 in 4.5s and 160mph within the first mile on a dry day. I think he'll be hard to beat.

Should be fun...Roll on Summer!!

Smile, I think his clutch will go first

But that would be a great idea, need to have some fun, and there has been a great deal of hard work put in by many in the club, and more interestingly there are all sorts of different approaches so they all have their individual compromises. I should have the boys car together soon, engine is now back in, so should have some wheels as well...

Faulks enthusiasm breaks the walls!!!! Can't wait almost for mine!!!

huge respect Martin

Chris,

Look over here:

http://www.alpine-renault.net/forums.htm

Look under the GTA section, and then for the charger cooler thread, you will see your pictures have been ripped off!

Better get on there and claim your work... before they drink the rest of your bottle of wine!

Laugh,
Martin

...should hit 160mph

A quick question- won't the gearing (let alone the clutch) limit it to 150 unless the rev limit is raised?

Standard cars theoretical max was 155 and with bigger wheels you'll have slightly taller gearing. Should see 160.

.
Morning both,

Well the best thing to do if you want to get accurate numbers, is to measure the rolling circumference (jack up and string or tape), and weigh car and driver. Especially in your case JV as you have gone fully loaded with all the air con anchor weight..

So have we got enough people interested to do Bruntingthorpe this year?

There must be a few Darren and Teglen (that's got to be a good head-to-head), Trevor, JonV (will it get you home with a clutch ), Smithy (bring all the torque you can ), Law's (come on, not much to finish now , needs a birthday!), Dell (21 comp car out for fresh air?), Bob (come on let's see it go bi-turbo A310), Will if he's finished..., Cedric.. with the help of the guardian angels.., Eddie (24V... are you still receiving radio Netherlands?), Miles (bi-turbo, come on you know you want too!), A610 and Venture boys, Johnb (before you send it off for paint), more for more, must be some l have missed.. hopefully I'll have had F50 done and dusted as it's supposed to be going to Macon!

Food for thought,
Martin

[mettersl]

Isn't the gearing the same on a A610 and GTA Turbo? (Ok A610 has larger wheels. but Jon, yours are bigger still).
The A610 has a quoted top speed of 165+, which must be at or below the red line, so your GTA with many more horses than a A610, and the same gear ratios (plus maybe bigger rolling radius wheels) should be good for much more than 150, its just that the speedo will also probably under reading.

We need to get all the finished modded motors out at Bruntingthorpe on the same day and run them all head to head with the racelogic timing gear strapped on.

Should be fun...Roll on Summer!!

I'd be up for this... just need a nice Samco turbo inlet hose first

Which hose do you need?

I'd be up for bruntingthorpe August onwards, need to have a bash at Tony's time.