Martin’s PRV bone yard…

Brian (Dallarax19).

As Martin commented I am restoring a 1980 A310V6 which I have been working on for almost 2 years now. My car is a bit earlier than yours, mine being the 3 stud wheel version. When I bought the car it had not run since 1988 and, as a result, everything needed attention. My approach was to restore the car to the original specification whilst replacing or repairing everything that needed attention. So it now has all the suspension, braking system, cooling system, gearbox, etc completed and the last major job is the engine rebuild that I'm currently working on.
Again my plan was to keep the engine standard but Martin has suggested a few basic improvements that I am in the process of pursuing. The engine is the 2664 cc odd fire with the standard 34TBIA and 35CEEI carbs. I plan to keep the carbs, at least initially, and see how the car feels with this set-up once it's finished. Fortunately the previous owner fitted a stainless steel exhaust system with fabricated manifolds so the exhaust flow should, hopefully, be better than with the standard arrangement.
Your engine simulation is interesting. I guess you input high exhaust flow data then, as you comment, you need to investigate how you might achieve this flow in terms of hardware modifications.
My engine is in pieces at the moment so I can take some measurements if you need any. If you have a list I'll see what I can do. I'll also check your input data against the A310 manual.

I appreciate the introduction Martin! The DCNF info can be supplied by my buddy Brad, he has the data I have DCOEs. He should be contacting you soon.

I will keep this post focused on the PRV and post my A310 story elsewhere.

I am looking at PRV options for my car. It is in need of a refreshing and the 2.8Volvo and 3.0ltr engines are plentiful here in the US. I want to have a reliable engine and just drive the car. My introduction to the PRV world was not good with immediate problems with the 34TBIA carb. My thoughts are to eliminate the carb but keep it as stock as possible. The whole dual carb with dual idle enrichment seems overly complicated to me. The Holly carb conversion would be pretty inexpensive in the US and that opens the opportunity to do minor tuning and reach into the PRV parts bin and build in more power but with some clever crafting still look stock. From my quest however I keep getting the same recommendation to ditch the Odd fire and go to the 2.8 or 3.0ltr even fire engine. I am therefore looking at the "what ifs?" and "how bouts?" of my options. I am looking for geometry data at the moment to compare in the sim model. I need data for the port dimensions, plenum volumes, and throttle body diameters for the 2.8s and 3.0s. I would appreciate the help.

etc completed and the last major job is the engine rebuild that I'm currently working on.

Hi John,

Bearings and inlet valve are on their way, so hopefully you will ahve them soon.

Cheers,
Martin

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Hi Brian,

Quick reply, typed one out and then finger trouble hitting a CTRL key and something else and whip gone... grumble... so trying to recall some of it, if not it will come back later...

Anyway, please do post up where your car story is going to be captured, as I'm sure there are many people on here that would enjoy reading it, as indeed I would too.

Numbers and things, I will sort out what you need, and will either send over or post up here as soon as I can.

Right, in terms of clarity of simulation approach, Performance Trends Engine Analyser I believe makes a more accurate simulation if you use measured port flow against valve lift, than using the algorithms assumption of coefficient of discharge – you would have captured the true coefficients, pressure recovery in the chamber, cylinder wall shrouding etc, is this going to be your approach? If that is the case, then I believe and correct me if I’m wrong, but the critical parameters then become port length, volume, and obviously measured port flow right?

As to getting support, there are a number of people on here who can help you in your quest. Both Richard Walsh (Simon Says), John Law (Ragnotti Drift) have practically implemented Holley conversions, and they probably have drawings that will give you additional inlet manifold volume (presuming you have one so have access to the OE volume you need), and indeed may have had the car on rolling road to get a power and torque curve.

Throttle body butterflies, which particular installation are you needing, as there were a number of PRV arrangements? Some arrangements have dual throttle bodies as in the DMC and R30 arrangement with the constant injection setup and manifold, the 3ltr n/a and 2.5ltr turbo have a 56mm throttle plate.

Both Stunned Monkey (Martin DMC UK), and Cineman (Andrea) are on here and the DMC forum, and they both have a great deal of experience with the DeLorean setup, and further Andrea has some nice 12V and 24V n/a setups that he possibly now has dyno plots for. Further, Andrea has a quick cam reference table he kindly sent me some time ago of various cams sold around Europe, so if he’s happy I’ll forward on to you. I also had the header lengths for the works rally 310’s they developed somewhere, and I will try and find that, I didn’t have the pipe IDs / ODs though which is a pity.

Cheers,
Martin

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Brian,

BTW - I do hope this gets some information flowing, as it's much needed. You have already found a thread I hadn't seen on TurboBricks on headers that is really good, thanks

Here from Tomasss:

For the exhaust headers, you definitely need something different then the stock solution to wake-up the engine...
http://forums.turbobricks.com/showth...=139051&page=2

Cheers,
Martin

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A quick post for Cedric and Will on their project hill climb cars, do follow Richard's (SimonSays) good example if you haven't researched it -

Straight out exhaust as I've said to you both, get it done, nicely done here, page 1 pic:

http://www.renaultalpineownersclub.com/ ... highlight=

and here page 3, various hints and tips there for the charge cooler and header tank, fire wall up front for the fuel tank, light weight door cards etc - good stuff. Cedric you will note the Civic I think induction kit intake feed to the turbo:

http://www.renaultalpineownersclub.com/ ... c&start=30

Simon Taylor's CC install worth reviewing:
http://www.renaultalpineownersclub.com/ ... er&start=0

Also you may notice his brake conversion which I think will be on your cards at some stage, which is the

Rupert - brembo caliper from a 406 Coupe fitted straight on. At £200 for a pair and with Clio discs at £50 a pair it seemed a cheap way to go

What size wheels are you running Richard to clear those calipers at the front, and what is your recommendation at the rear?

Cheers,
Martin

Sure Martin, you can give Dallarax everything ! BTW, is not something i made enterely myself, i contributed to the table just for the numbers of the 24v cams by the french grinder and pointed to the numbers of the german grinder / maker, Dbilas, to the french guy wich keep that table updated in the French alpine Forum ( dallarax knows it, is there too ! )

here the link of the Cams topic:
http://alpinerenault.free.fr/outils/for ... &start=120

Regarding my engines project, current status is:
24V 3.0 with 260deg cams, 10.8:1 forged cr: paused, owner is waiting for new fuel injector but still not decided completely where to go with the ECU ( original or not ) so engine is still never started.

12V 2.8lt even firing with 280deg cams from Dbilas, 10.8:1 forged pistons, enlarged and polished head ducts, original even firing plenum but with Delorean double throttle body 2x45mm instead of 1x55mm: engine is running nice with Renix ECU Fenix 3A, i still have to map it good, but i still don't have managed how to make a good throttle linkage working on the Delorean, so i have not moved the car yet XD !

My 12v 3.0lt Twin turbo is running nice and sleeping clutch after 4000rpm for power since last days re-fuelling and settings of the Injectors with the Megasquirt so is quite nice, if i want to push i'll have to finally go for the updated clutch we discussed lot of times with Martin !

I'm working too on a friend A310 , going converter to grIV But engine still far away from current works, lot of work done on the chassis, now working on interior fiberglass and attaching point for rollcage ( i dont work myself with the fiberglass, i hate, my other friend do it! )

Hi John,

Bearings and inlet valve are on their way, so hopefully you will ahve them soon.

Cheers,
Martin

The parts arrived this morning thanks. Have the Plastigauge so can now do the bearing clearance checks.

Rupert - brembo caliper from a 406 Coupe fitted straight on. At £200 for a pair and with Clio discs at £50 a pair it seemed a cheap way to go

Interesting stuff. Do you know which 406/Clio?

I would appreciate input. I have the start of a PRV simulation and would appreciate any feedback and clarification on exact geometry. We estimated the following:
1) Port diamter, at the head and at the valve seat
2) Rocker ratio and cam lift (1.5?)
3) Cam center line (108?)
4) Cam profile / lift
5) Cfm of the carbs

I’ve taken some dimensions of the cylinder heads of my A310 and these are the results:
Regarding your questions: -

1. Port diameter at the head and valve seat. See items 6 & 7 below.

2. Rocker ratio and cam lift.
Using a depth micrometer mounted on the top of the head I measured down to the back of the cams and then to the top of the cam lobes, the difference being the cam lift. The measurement was reasonably accurate and varied between 0.198” to 0.205” (5.03 mm to 5.21 mm) plus or minus a couple of thou. This was approximately the same for both inlet and exhaust valves and the 2 heads.
I measured a rocker, which was 48 mm from the shaft centreline to the adjuster and 30 mm from the shaft centreline to the edge of the wear mark on the follower, thus giving a ratio of 1.6.
Using the measured cam lift range above, this gives a valve lift of 8.05 mm to 8.34 mm. This equates approximately to the 8.17 mm and 8.3 mm stated in the A310 manual and in your tabulation. However in your 2.7 ltr base power simulation plot the ‘Setup’ notes assume a valve lift of 12.45 mm based on a cam lift of 8.3 mm.
As a double check I put an inlet valve in a head and measured the actual lift of the valve and it was approximately 8 mm.
This is the only comment I have against your plots, all the data in you tabulation agrees with the data in the A310 manual.

3. Cam centreline. If you mean the height of the cam centreline above the head/block split line face then mine measures 84mm. I’ve seen some data somewhere that gives the cylinder centreline spacing as 108 mm.

4. Cam profile/lift. See 2 above. I don’t have any dimensional data regarding the actual cam profiles.

5. I don’t have any carb cfm data.

6. Intake port dimensions.
Using the same nomenclature as your post of the 27th December.
A = 39.5 mm, B = 36 mm, C = 42 mm parallel to head face (horizontally) and 43 mm perpendicular to head face (vertically), D = 37 mm but difficult to be accurate as the port shape at the manifold is quite varied, horizontally and vertically, and each of the 3 ports differ in shape.
I didn’t measure the port length because I wasn’t sure of your end point in the manifold.

7. Exhaust port dimensions.
A = 32 mm, B = 34 mm parallel to head face, in the perpendicular direction the port is restricted by the casting bulge around the valve guide and the bulge opposite to this, C = 31 mm, D = 29 mm.
Again I didn’t measure the port length.

http://www.renaultalpineownersclub.com/ ... highlight=
I would very much like to collaborate if you are interested.

Brian

I need to digest it all and will get back to everyone when I collaborate with my buddy Brad who is does the sim work. Stay tuned

Glad to help on basic information like my last post but I'm sure the real experts on here will also assist.
Your A310 looks to be in nice condition and the X19 goes well. No speed limits where you shot the videos?

Brian,
Minor point about your simulation data tabulation. The engine designation for my engine is 112-730 not Z7V.
The attached may be of interest regarding engine designations.

http://www.delorean.fr/forum/viewtopic.php?p=72627

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Hi Andrea,

Thanks for the update, nice to hear your projects are coming along well, and by the sounds of it launching into doing this more full time now? Opportunity for 2013 maybe?

24V, sounds like it would probably be easier to go after market ecu, and have the ease of programming, why is the owner unsure?

Your DMC on MS, did you try changing the regulator reference? If so how did you get on with it that way?

On the A310, do you have works upgrade plans for where reinforcing needs to be applied, out of interest? Do you have any other chassis mods planned or already implemented? What is going to be the final application of the car, competition or street use?

Thanks,
Martin