Bleedin Brakes...

[BIG_MVS]

Could the problem lie with the handbrake cables themselves?

Now the bad news The original problem of why I dismantled them in the first place- a weak handbrake- seems to still be the same! Seems I haven't cured it!

I wonder if the reason the cam plate popped out the first time, was because there is a problem with its seating which we have not noticed, and therefore it might have popped out again. If it were me, to satisify my own curiosity, if the wheel is still off on that side, I would just slip off the dust cover, just to check if the cam plate is still in place, as I find it strange the fault is still there.
When you took it apart, you found a very specific fault, which would have caused the handbrake to be poor. You made an excellent repair, but the fault still exists, it just makes me wonder if the cam plate is still in its proper position. Just a thought

John

Hi Martin
yes

Could the problem lie with the handbrake cables themselves?

that's what I am beginning to think... maybe? On the pulley thing near the handbrake it looks slightly off centre, i.e that one side is more BIASED than the other- off centre- maybe the cable has stretched or something- is this possible? I don't know but started to think maybe what you have suggested maybe the issue?

also John has made another reply may hold some truth... I answer again to John thanks for help all.... Darren

I wonder if the reason the cam plate popped out the first time, was because there is a problem with its seating which we have not noticed, and therefore it might have popped out again. If it were me, to satisify my own curiosity, if the wheel is still off on that side, I would just slip off the dust cover, just to check if the cam plate is still in place, as I find it strange the fault is still there.

Yes Hi John- also that is what I thought maybe?

Well, I can throw some light on your question... I think I myself popped the Cam plate out by over adjustment when the handbrake didn't work originally- So I adjusted it to about 5 clicks and then pulled it on very hard because it still wasn't working--- PING!!! I remember the sound!! I think I popped the cam plate out by over adjustment... BUT even though I did this- it wasn't working anyway. thats why I started fiddling with the adjustment in the first place-- also what you are saying about its seating-- I too wonder that if it hadn't worn a few mm of or something making the differnce of the brake not working-- when I was reseating it it all seemed normal with no wear... I don't think I have popped it out again but will check tomorrow--- think maybe what Martin has suggested that it may be a cable thing?
thanks again Darren wanna buy a nice LHD with a handbrake issue? !!

Are you LHD generally in Jersey? Is Jersey EU or France or its own state... ?

Well I maybe jumping the gun but could not the most simple explaination be that the cable has stretched?
Can a cable like this stretch enough to cause the handbrake to not operate? I wouldn't have thought so but after 23 years that is abit of time....

will double check the cam plate tomorrow but I think it is okay- all seemed solid/ no wear and went back together okay -spring and all, eventually after two hours of fiddling with clamps and vices etc.... Well at least I got half a handbrake.. better than none!

I think I myself popped the Cam plate out by over adjustment when the handbrake didn't work originally- So I adjusted it to about 5 clicks and then pulled it on very hard because it still wasn't working--- PING!!! I remember the sound!! I think I popped the cam plate out by over adjustment...

Are you LHD generally in Jersey? Is Jersey EU or France or its own state... ?

Hi Darren

My gut reaction to this is that over adjustment would not displace the plate. As long as it was pulled in its natural direction, it would stay in place, however pushing the calliper lever, or forcing it, in the opposite direction, is another matter. But two obversations come to mind.
When you pull the brake on, do the two calliper levers rotate the same angular distance, or does the good one move further, or less?
The swivel plate where the cables (I take it there are two, as opposed to one continuous calliper to calliper type) attach, at the handbrake end, does it remain "ballanced", when the brake is applied, for each cable side, or does it pull more on one side than the other. If it does, which side does it pull more, and which side brake does not work well?

With regard to the Geo/Political questions We drive on the LHS of the road (or we do unless we have had a few ) So no sale there I`m affraid and we are a self governed Island, and our main industry is finance.........or it was until a week or so ago and we are not in the EU, but we have an agreed protocal, with special privillages, inshrined in the Treaty of Rome.............well you did ask

John

My gut reaction to this is that over adjustment would not displace the plate. As long as it was pulled in its natural direction, it would stay in place, however pushing the calliper lever, or forcing it, in the opposite direction, is another matter. But two obversations come to mind.
When you pull the brake on, do the two calliper levers rotate the same angular distance, or does the good one move further, or less?
The swivel plate where the cables (I take it there are two, as opposed to one continuous calliper to calliper type) attach, at the handbrake end, does it remain "ballanced", when the brake is applied, for each cable side, or does it pull more on one side than the other. If it does, which side does it pull more, and which side brake does not work well?

Yes ok- yes it may have been that I did dislodge the cam plate by forcing the lever back. Yes I think when I inspected it it did infact look like it was easier to dislodge the plate by forcing the lever back rather than over adjustment the other way- so yes maybe you are right.. There again, that doesn't explain the PING noise when I really pulled the handbrake on tight after overadjusting as it was not working properly- came from the side with the problem also.
Anyway- that aside

When you pull the brake on, do the two calliper levers rotate the same angular distance, or does the good one move further, or less?

Now it seems that the good one moved further I seem to remember, in fact you could see it visibly with the eye that the arm was moving much less on the bad one.

The swivel plate where the cables (I take it there are two, as opposed to one continuous calliper to calliper type) attach, at the handbrake end, does it remain "ballanced", when the brake is applied, for each cable side, or does it pull more on one side than the other. If it does, which side does it pull more, and which side brake does not work well?

No the pulley arm/ swivel thing with the two cables in it looks off balance- in fact even when the handbrake is not on I think the bad brake is more on causing the pulley lo lean to that side when you look at it. When it is pulled on it is still off centre in the same way. Yes definately off centre towards the bad brake being pulled on more..

ok thanks again and I can be seeing what you make of these new answers I give you.
Aaaha, yes also I better get the thing back up un the stands to check the cam plate is still in fact in place- as you have also suggested.

yes Jersey - thanks for the run down- ...

and our main industry is finance.........or it was until a week or so ago

yes what finance exactly? seems there isn't going to be much of that left- especially in Iceland where it has probably got colder still.

P.s If anyone is worried about their savings in this hardtime then just give them to me... End of worries then- It is that simple....

I have had a good think about this and have come up with this theory, the fact that the good calliper lever moves more than the bad one, and the hand brake end quadrent is biased more towards the bad one when you pull the hand brake on, suggests to me that the calliper main piston has seized, or is extremly stiff. The degree of seizure could be such that with the car moving on the road, and the servo working, there might be enough power to overcome the seizure, but the hand brake does not have the power to do the same. The fact that you wound the "brake wear compensation barrel" in does not preclude the fact that the main calliper piston could be seized. The only quick test I can think of off the top of my head, is with the rear of the car on stands with wheels on, would be to get someone to apply the foot brake gently to a point where you could just turn the good side by hand, then go around to the bad side and see if the same amount of force is required to move the bad side. I think you will find the bad side will turn will turn easier, suggesting that the piston is not moving freely. You may have to do this test with the engin running out of gear, but try it first with engin stopped. The only other thing to check is to make sure the hand brake cable is not seized in its outer. Slacken off the Hand brake adjustment, and pull the inner at the calliper end to make sure it is free in its outer.

John

suggests to me that the calliper main piston has seized, or is extremley stiff.

yes hi again John... don't you just love Alpines? AND HELPING ME!

well also that's what I was beginning to think... seems the normal brakes are strong... I spun the wheels on the ramp and the foot brake stopped really strong as normal... both sides REALLY strong.... still not quite understanding it all but somewhat... will investigate further and read your messages more...

anyway- I reckon the side (handbrake) that is working is very strong- enough to make a decent handbrake even.
Considering my mechanical knowledge or lack of it (despite your encouragement, which I appreciate) it maybe better for me to try to sell the car, before I make things worse...
yes would like to try to get to the bottom of it too ... I also have a 'gut feeling', which may actually equate to 'common Sense' that the problem maybe simpler than what it may seem.... anyway I do not know... guessing really but thinking what you are saying about the piston seizing maybe the case... although the normal brakes all seem strong... is this possible?
Does the handbrake interact with the normal brakes at all..? Because the normal brakes all seem really good? But handbrake only working on the one side...?

I spun the wheels on the ramp and the foot brake stopped really strong as normal... both sides REALLY strong.... still not quite understanding it all but somewhat... will investigate further and read your messages more...

Hi Darren,
I am affraid, in my opinion, that is no test. The inertia produced by spinning the wheel by hand is no where near the inertia of the weight of the car at speed on the wheels.
With regard to your other points, I think I have covered them in my last response, as you say, you are going to read my message more..., so I think you should be able to pick them out without me repeating them, but come back if there is anything not covered.
The other thing worth doing with the car on stands, and wheels off..... on the good side, turn the disc by hand, and see if you can push the lever again by hand, in the cable pull direction, to stop the disc, and repeat on the bad side. If you can stop the disc on the good side, but not on the bad side, that would eliminate the hand brake and its cables, having first checked the cam plate is still in position under the dust cover , however if you can stop both discs with about the same pressure on each lever, then the cable must be looked into further. Also have a good visual check on the anchorage of the outers of the cables to make sure they are seated correctly (compare to the good side) also check that the cables at the hand brake end are correctly seated in their respective places on the pulling quadrant.
Happy hunting

John

The inertia produced by spinning the wheel by hand is no where near the inertia of the weight of the car at speed on the wheels.

No I spun the wheels by putting it into gear on ramps and giving it a few revs..- ok it was only in 1s't gear but I gave the accelarator a good old kick before slamming the brakes hard. Both sides did stop hard- I don't know maybe it was like doing 15 mph? They seemed to work okay like that and did stop very abruptly- instant even both sides.

Maybe though the theory about the piston being seized and the servo has enough power to still operate it maybe true, whereas the handbrake does not.

Also I am understanding what you say about making the lever move myself (without the cable to check it is actually working) as you say that then would eliminate the cables if it wasn't.
Ok tomorrow I get her up on the ramps and probably first things first check that cam plate is still in place- then go over the stuff you are suggesting.

Hi John and all- yes I haven't examined things because I may have a buyer at the weekend... Took the car out yestereday to test and brakes all seem strong and straight.... The side of the handbrake that is working is over adjusted so will slacken it off. It was reasonably efficient, tested it on a couple of hills both upwards and downwards- didn't move-- will try it on some steep ones over next few days..
If the guy buys the car I can explain the problem to him. Well, hopefully he buys as my skill and time as an Alpine mechanic is hopefully drawing to an end (not that in a way I haven't enjoyed it). Then I can put the stuff I have learnt into maintaining the ancient but lovely condition Clio!! Funny- on the Clio the interior is in a way less 'plastic'. Yes, funny but nothing is inoperative in the Clio except the remote C. Locking... think it shares the same 'reciever?' as the Alp....

Yes, funny but nothing is inoperative in the Clio except the remote C. Locking... think it shares the same 'reciever?' as the Alp....

Certainly in the Mk 1 Cleo it was, and if it had a sunshine roof, it apparently had a commom fault, where the roof leaked into the remote Rx. I was able to get hold of one, repair the water damaged cct print, and got it working again. Subsequently I reprogramed the Key Fob to match the Alp one.