injectors

we should do a rolling road day then we can compare figures

I'm planning to put mine on these when it's run in,towards end next month.

http://www.streetracersgd.co.uk/

Will be looking to get a base figure after rebuild, hopefully nearer newish output
Anyone want to come ? Make a day of it ?

im up for it,it could be a gud day if we get a few of us there so come on lads get ur names down

It would be good to see 300bhp on Steves car, component wise, it is pretty much a monster spec...

i picked the car up yesterday and was speaken to the bloke that did all the work on it,he said he still isnt happy with the chargecooler as its not bringing the temps down enough and seems to think i need a better pump he also seems to think there could be flow problem with the engine and mentioned the heads he seemed to think a modern v6 running the same boost should be pushing out around 330bhp,but im more than happy with it at the momement as it pulls like a train in all gears upto 150(private road of course) so the next job is to find a better pump and then maybe concentrate on the heads and cams maybe then i might brake past 270bhp

You shouldnt need to do heads etc to get past 270.....I had not far off that with a much smaller turbo, injectors and an intercooler that wasnt functioning100%.....not to mention it getting mapped in the July heatwave and I only ran 1 bar. (and saw over 300lbs of torque)
I know you are going to defend the tuners and the Dastek (and say that RRs measure differrently), but when you look at what figures you have, for what youve done and spent, something is not right, and chucking money at having the heads done on a turbo car when you dont have a fully programmable ECU set up is mad! I know I sound like a stuck record....but I just assumed when you went in with all the bits youve had done you would come back with figures to match.

i admit a standalone is better overall but if i was to fit a standalone at this point i wont gain anything,on the rollers my charge temps are around 60c he reckons they should be around 45c and says i need a powerfuller pump(any recommenditions mr gentlemen) and says that could be robbing me of 15bhp and it isnt running 1.2 its running 1.1 bar my mistake my afr gauge is showing 11.7 @wot and egt is around 960c to me that says the fuelling is spot on,dont think im having a go peter but i cant believe those tourqe figures that you got i have never seen a car that produces that much tourqe over bhp my alp is only producing 250lb/ft tourqe and that seems more realistic with the power it acheived i will get my graph up whemn my dad gets back of holiday as i havent a clue how to post up graphs

I had nearly 250lbs with the standard ECU and about 240bhp, so the 300lbs figure is totally believeable (it was a bit too low in the rev range though and as a result the power figure suffered, but due to the heat at the time it was never intended to be the final set up....and then bang!!! ).I dont want to sound like I'm having a go either, I just expected much more from your set up....youve done so much to it I was waiting for the near 300bhp figures thats all. It just feels like what youve done hasnt yet come to fruition and its almost frustrating!

ok then can you tell me what im going to acheive with a standalone at the moment as my fueling is spot on?the only thing that is robbing me of bhp is charge temps he reckons about 15bhp so if you was to say my alp had 270-275bhp @ 1.1bar that seems like a good figure and when i eventually run 20psi im sure it wont be far off 300bhp,im going to try and make it to the yorkdragstrip on sunday just to see what it can do will have to see if i have time though as im on holiday on the monday

As I understand it, the biggest gains are in ignition timing which the Dastek doesn't do - correct?

Without improving the air flow (cams, intercooler etc), you will hit a ceiling where more boost just equals more noise and a peak earlier in the rev range, but no extra power. In my experience anyway.

I believe the barrel cooler you guys use is the 4" type, is that correct? PWR's own specs tell you the 4" coolers are good for 400cfm, and at 1 bar of boost, at 5500rpm, you're theoretically flowing 485cfm into a 2.5 engine - or at least trying to, hence more heat.

If the charvecooler pump wasn't flowing fast enough, you'd see a massive temperature change from on side of the water feed to the other. I suggest investing in four cheapo digital thermometers and start probing the temps across the chargecooler for both air and water. You'll have much more of an idea what's going on

Martin, could you expand on your calculations above for me.

And yes, I have an ART/PWR 4 inch diameter (by 10 inch long) barrel CC, running a tadge under 1 bar (about 13psi today, but looking at 15 when I've adjusted it) and revving to 5500 for gear changes.

Are you saying that at this engine speed the 2.5 engine will be using 485cfm and the theoretical "shortfall" of 85cfm can only be seen as heat build up?

ps: I'm ok with numbers and big equations, just need to see it (with the units) to try and understand it.

I have a Courtney digi temp guage, not sure how accurate it really is, but I might just try and measure the water temps too at some stage, charge temps were only ever up to 40 ish, which was 40 less than before the CC was fitted, so it is deffinately doing a lot.

In my opinion it again shows how much difference the temperature will have on the power produced on the rollers. Chances are you'll be running at ~40C when you're on the road anyway - much the same as Simon has shown.

I doubt that a new pump will make a lot of difference. Get the flow rate and work out the circulation times, again I think Simon has done this already.

What will make a big difference is the sticking caliper. Without rectifying that you'll never get an accurate figure - you could easily be into a loss in double figures.

Reality is though that high boost turbocharged engines always end up at the whim of intake temps. The Jag XJ220 supposedly made 70bhp more on a cold day

im sure the dasktec can alter the ignition cant remember what he put now,i think i am going to invest in a charge temp gauge also i might consider fitting a small spal fan behiend the intercooler as when i was out in the turbo 2 when the intercooler fan was turned on the temps came down by about 6-7c
the caliper is getting done next week so hopefully it might be even better on the road,also im not getting gears hardly now so thats another job to the list

missing gears, give the clutch system a real big bleed.
Also check the linkages are not wobbly loose or too tight.

Martin, could you expand on your calculations above for me.

Okie doke

Assumption: 100% volumetric efficiency. This is near enough impossible in this engine but the theory is sound...

A 4 stroke engine draws half its capacity per rev - ie a 2.5 litre engine draws 1.25 litres every revolution. A naturally aspirated engine is operating under atmospheric pressure - ie 1bar positive pressure pushing air into the cylinders

A turbocharged engine running a bar of boost is doubling its capacity. This is why you need a 2 bar map sensor to run a bar of boost, a 3 bar to run up to 2 bar etc.

So at a bar of boost, a 2.5 litre engine at 100% volumetric efficiency is "breathing" 2.5 litres of air every rev. Times 5500rpm = 13750 litres per minute.(and for anyone who says that putting the air filter in the engine bay is a bad idea "because it gets warm air" needs to be shown some of these figures.... at this speed, the engine is drawing in nearly 230 litres of air every second. I don't think it hangs around in the engine bay long enough to get hot because of the engine! But I digress.)

13750 litres = 485.576 665 368 cubic feet

Thanks to http://www.onlineconversion.com/

Now the engine is anything but 100% volumetrically efficient (is that correct grammar?!) but I think it's fair to say you're getting close, if not surpassing the limit of the ability of the chargecooler to efficiently flow the charge.

We had trouble with the TT DeLorean and restrictive intercoolers. The result was lots of noise and crap power on what is essentially a Z7U engine with no mods, just two turbos and an adaptronic. The charge temps were getting MUCH higher than you guys have talked about....

Simons right, Your not flowing 485cfm on the engine..Its no where near 485cfm, its not even close to 400....

400cfm is 300 bhp thereabouts, 260 is about 350cfm...

The pump is fine as everyone knows, Peter had chargetemps over 60 degrees, you wont get the cooling way down on the rollers, there is simply not enough air flow

11.7:1 is way too low. Pete was running 12.5, which is what you should be running

Also, your chargecooler it positioned over your exhaust system and your filler unit seems to be the same height as the cooler, so youve most likely got air lock problems too...