C.A.R. AGM

great speach dermot, stand up and be counted stephen.

[stephendell]

Last time I stood up I was ignored

At least I've got until 31st October to think about it (when this years membership benefits expire).

I don't know if being on the committee would help. Niall is and I know he's found it hard work developing the official website as a result.

Andrew (the GTA registrar) is a good bloke and I don't particularly want to tread on his toes either, so I'm not sure what place there would be for me. I also don't think the other committee members would be very welcoming of someone who has been 'forced' upon them.

I certainly don't want to have to get the permission of 9 other committee members every time I want to organise a trip or event!

Also I'm not sure if I even want to be part of a club that refuses point blank to print one of its members contributions to newsletters!

But perhaps Peter & Simons suggestion of an appearance en mass at the AGM is worth considering.

You have to be in it to influence it Stephen.......how do you think Mussolini and Hitler gained power....subversion from within the system....actually thats probably a bad analogy!!!!!!!

I think were doing quite nicely by ourselves thankyou. Having been a member of a few car clubs I think the ones that are run by commitees (i.e. most of them) just become inefficient and overly political with lots of in fighting between different factions. This site is more like an ancient Greek forum where everyone has as much of a say as they want and anybody would be free to suggest or organize themselves. Knowing certain members of the CAR commitee quite well I know they will not look kindly upon someone they don't know coming in and giving things a major shake-up. And I really don't like some of the 'old school' alpinists amongst them. Believe me if you have a GTA that is like owning a 924 Porshe to them. So I say stay as we are and if things become to big to handle then maybe look at it again.

[stephendell]

For those of you that think change from within is possible, here's the final official line from C.A.R. regarding their initial refusal to promote my website in the newsletter for the last ten months.

It's attitudes like this that makes me feel it's pointless attending the AGM. There is not even the barest hint of an apology.

You'll also find my reply below:

** High Priority **

I thought my previous reply gave a fairly straightforward explanation of
mine and the Club's position.

Whether you agree or not, I was not prepared to publish your information
without seeking guidance from, and a resolution of, the Committee. This was duly given on 26th September.

There is no question of "censorship" as you suggest. I will exercise my
editorial discretion if, in my view, the contents of any correspondence is
offensive or could bring the Club into disrepute. This is clearly not the
case with yours. I am not aware of the repeated adverts problem you now
raise. So far as I can recall, I will have published anything I have
received as soon as practicable.

I see no conflict with your website and neither should there be. I would
expect that users of your site and all Club members and owners are committed to promoting the Alpine marque whenever and wherever they can, the Club Committee are certainly of that view. Mutual contact is important, competition and criticism is of no benefit to either party.

Peter W

Hi Peter,

That must be the most contradictory reply I've ever read!

Why didn't you just say that you weren't prepared to print my letter when I
first sent it to you in January or February? That would have been fine.

If you feel that mutual contact is important & competition and criticism are
of no benefit to either party, why did you feel you needed guidance to print
my letter. You state yourself that it did not fall into a category that
required editorial discretion. Clearly there was some hidden agenda here.

I can only feel disappointed that the Club took it upon itself to initially
refuse to promote a website that a club member spent a lot of time and
effort creating.

In any event, thank you for taking the time to clarify your position.

Regards
Stephen.

** High Priority **

It is becoming obvious now you are not prepared to accept whatever I say in response to your questions. There seems little point therefore in continuing this dialogue further.

Peter W

Do you think they know that several club members use the site and that there are at least a dozen potential members attached to the site??? (me included)........CAR will die without support, but from what I hear I am not willing to fork out £40 to join and receive little or no benefit.

Guys, I think too much negative is being assumed on actions by a committee.

Clubs need committees to run them because a club based around an individual or a loosely organised group typically lasts no longer than a few years or is limited in it's scope. It's a fact.

With an official club and one with an MSA license there THEN falls on it a responsibility to not let the club or affiliates "fall into disrepute'. So CAR clearly has a duty to consider all items published under it's asupices.

THAT is a fundamental legal difference between w web site "bunch of mates" and a formal club. So where you see duplicity, Stephen, I see a club protecting the members and affiliates and organisation recognition from bodies like the MSA.

That's the real world.
Let me take one example we had with our company.
Consider track days. organised by a 'group'. If anything goes wrong and negligence can be shown by the 'group;' then it is possible for that group to be sued in a private court case and lead to bankruptcy, loss of houses/cars etc. It coudl get nasty. Clubs who organise events under affiliates are provided a level of protection to its memebers and organisers.
When our company ther potential 'exposure to risk' on this, we had to change the way we book track days and had to have everyone sign disclaimers - fortunately we had 'free' legal costs to get it drawn up

I think recognising the CAR members desire to ensure everything would be acceptable to the committee is reasonable. That it took so long isn't

[stephendell]

Don't forget we're only talking about a simple request to print a three line letter alerting club members to a website relating to their vehicles.

Nothing more than that.

Recognising C.A.R. members desire to ensure everything would be acceptable to the committee would be reasonable, if it wasn't for the disclaimer at the end of the newsletter:

'The statements and opinions expressed in each and every issue of the newsletter are not necessarily the considered views of the Directors of the club. The views expressed by the editor, contributors, letter writers and advertisers are their own and do not necessarily reflect the views of the club.

C.A.R. Ltd accepts no responsibility for the results of following contributors advice nor does it necessarily endorse the services or products offered by advertisers.

I think that covers just about everything and bearing that in mind I think it is perfectly reasonable for me to take the editors decision personally.

I have been a C.A.R. member for several years and just wanted to provide a resource for enthusiasts. It took 6 months for me to even get a reply and 10 months for a decision. I happen to think that's unacceptable.

Everyone else seems to get their submissions printed without problem, including in the latest issue an advertisement from a non-member.

I bet if I'd had sent it as a paid advert it would have been a different story!

I must support stephen here totally

CAR is set up for the benefit of its members ( presumably ) and from earlier posts we know there to be GTA owning membership of excess of 50% of CAR. The quality and benefit of stephens website as a resource to these members can not be overestimated. This has already been recognised by the Berlinette magazine which would be considered very influential in the alpine world. Consequently CAR should have notified their members of this valuable resource. The fact that they have chosen to refer to other resources and not this one is infact invidious discrimination and not in the interests of the clubs members and the publishing of the details of what occurred should assist the club members in decing what way they want their club to go - in other words transparency.

Incidentally surely a magazine editor should know the difference between dialogue and correspondence and that letters are written not said.

Stephen is not knocking the club he is just saying he has been treated unfairly and as a result the members have suffered and i believe he is justified in feeling this way

keep fighting stephen!

You can`t expect 100% satisfaction with the decisions of a committee but with such a small "Alpine family" it`s important that a turf war does`nt develop.

Barry J - you have the ear of the committee and I wonder whether you can take up this issue? A mention for the website may help to ease any tensions which appear to be developing.

This is especially important given the convoy of 9 cars to Croix (representing c75% of the UK attendence) proving beyond any doubt that this website has a following of active Alpine owners, just the members CAR GB are keen to attract/retain.

Regards

Iain

Phew, I just clicked on this thread out of idle curiosity. It's very sad to hear that owners of "non A110's" could be made to feel factionalised. I think we can forget about the actual numbers of cars relating to membership, it is inevitable that there will be fewer A110's. All the cars in the club are Alpines and should be considered as such; they all need some form of specialist advice to keep them running and we all need equal access to the club.

We really have to pull together and if the club is in any way creating the impression that there is a difference in Alpine ownership, then that is very wrong. At a club level, all Alpines should have equal importance (obviously historically there is a heirachy, but that is not important in this discussion).

I have been a member for many years and am very glad to be part of the club, but I constantly pick up up little hints that there are factions and predjudices in various quarters. I find this a little saddening as people should look at the bigger picture.

I do think that it's the club's responsibility to inform members of Alpine related happenings - and that includes websites. It's not asking for endorsement, just recognition.

Anyway; thanks for putting this site together, it is already a very valuable resource for owners of the later Alpines. Owning a GTA is, in many ways, tougher than owning an A110 and if people cannot share their knowledge more and more GTA's will end up rotting in sheds.

I've just got through reading this thread, and as a new owner of an Alpine I don't really know much about the scene and the clubs etc., but I'm not inspired to join CAR from what I've read. I have to say that if it weren't for this site I would probably never have bought my GTA Turbo, as it has definitely been the best source of information and friendly advice anywhere on the web (including the CAR site). I'm probably going to join the ROC (for the cheaper insurance!), but I'll continue to use this site to keep in touch with other GTA owners. Keep up the good work Stephen

Liam, I would still join CAR despite everything I've read....
Alpine Brand loyalty.
Rup

I've just got through reading this thread, and as a new owner of an Alpine I don't really know much about the scene and the clubs etc., but I'm not inspired to join CAR from what I've read. I have to say that if it weren't for this site I would probably never have bought my GTA Turbo, as it has definitely been the best source of information and friendly advice anywhere on the web (including the CAR site). I'm probably going to join the ROC (for the cheaper insurance!), but I'll continue to use this site to keep in touch with other GTA owners. Keep up the good work Stephen

I would say that joing CAR was the best thing I have ever done for Alpine ownership. Despite some seemingly scratchy attitudes in places, generally the people are friendly.

I concur with your views about this website and it's great to hear that visiting here encouraged you to buy an Alp'. Proof positive that the club needs to be more proactive with the V6 cars.

Are there many CAR members in NI? Are there ever any events held in NI? I've really got into this GTA ownership and would like to attend some events but it's not very practical for me to go to England etc., especially with my working 6 days a week.