Different day ,different car .................same shit !!!!

Hi Guys

I reviewed both your map Tony and Lee's, they both hit the same injector duty (and the limit) at the same points. It's certainly injector duty related but since it is happening as low as 3500rpm it should not be because they are at 100% duty. They are infact at about 60% in each case at 3500rpm. They were aproaching 100% as RPM rose though, so still the injectors are too small as we know but my point is that they should not be hitting a wall at 3500rpm. I've been trying to think of common factors between your 2 engines. Dave's was not an issue at that boost level since his 440cc injectors ment we didn't need as much duty.

I'm going to check with Adaptronic on the off chance there is a bug in the 6-cylinder code that means the injectors hit a premature limit. I know for sure that this odd-limit has not happened in any of the 4 cylinder engines I have mapped. I'll keep you updated

Chris

I thought it was weird that both of us could only run 12 psi since the injectors are not exactly proportionally bigger to the extra power - I reckon I'm making say 25% more power with an injector thats 50% bigger. I've run engines with Lees spec previously on 1 bar without a problem although they were probably a little lean. My car also ran a bar of boost the 1st time it was mapped without issue - although it probably didn't make much more power than it does now thanks to your far superior set up

It would be interesting to try Dave's ecu on mine or Lee's car see if it does the same

Should have put my 330s in it innit But it was just too cold for me to be arsed

Tony thanks, I'm confident you will make some healty power once the boost is where it should be. I think there is some funny issue with the way the ECU is handling 120° periods since I don't ever come across that brick-wall problem in 4cyl.

Lee, you just need yourself a good heater, a little propane space heater will have your spacious garage warm in no time

I took it down to have some new tyres fitted yesterday and it was the first time I'd been able to give it some stick in the low gears. It still feels very very quick certainly quicker than an A610

. Scoff has set it up a little richer than before which is why it didn't run out of fuel at 300 bhp previously. What boost do A610's run standard? If there about the same then I've probably done the sums right.

610's run abour 12psi standard, then push 285hp at 15psi (1bar) with no cat on the original ECU, according to Steve's gizmo (did I get that right, Steve?).

Interestingly, the Venturi 300 runs a higher fuel pressure and a bar of boost and hits 285 *with* a cat. Go figure...

Also the V300's fuel pressure reg runs higher pressure throughout the range - running 3 bar at idle vac CONNECTED - ie close to 4 bar full throttle, no boost. I plumbed in a pressure gauge to my cockpit so I could see what was going on before replacing with an FSE linear reg and adjusting it up.

No. of injectors 6 x duty cycle (10% =0.1) this is the bit thats a guess as apparently injectors usually max out somewhere between 90 and 100 % (the bigger you make this percentage the bigger your bhp figure will be) injector cc is in lbs per hour in the formula which has to be multiplied by 10.5 to get cc. So if your injectors are at 90% at 12 psi it should work like this BHP x 0.6/6x0.9=20.19 equates to 181.7 bhp.

Dunno if this is a factor, but the Adaptronic fires the injectors every 2 revs to decrease the variation caused by "on" times, but is part of the reason the throttle response is difficult to tune. Nutshell: if you've got times greater than 20ms at 6000revs or 40ms at 3000rpm and so on, then you're maxing out.

To hit 12.5:1 at 1 bar on a Z7U, the 440cc injectors are over 10ms by 5000rpm, tuned by the adaptronic adaptive learning on an Innovate.

Aiii seen seen .
I'll get one of these....................... RTOC stylee chrome ?

Yes, Martin is exactly right. Martin, we are hitting a brick wall at 19ms@3500rpm so not long after 50% IDC.

Rob from Adaptronic says that he "thinks" that the ECU fires batch every single crank RPM when set to 6 cylinders. He thinks that as a result 18ms would infact be 100% IDC. I think he's wrong, or that Adaptronic has a bug in the V6 code meaning that it will not let injector pulses last longer than 360°. Ofcourse, you normally have a whole 720° to play with.

I've asked Rob if he can run my/Tony's ECU code on the bench. In the past Cory @ Adaptronic has been very helpfull like this.

Chris

And Lee, that's what you want We used to use a big diesel heater when we worked from a unit, it was a bit smokey for some. I have a propane heater for the cold days in my garage at home, it's just a bit of a bigger having to lug a 19kg propane bottle about when it runs out.

Further for Martin, yes 10ms is about what I used in Dave's car also with 440cc injectors I recall.

Another point, the 'limit' only seems to occur at lower RPM's, in Tony's map we're actually getting up toward the limit of the 330cc injectors at 5500rpm or so.

Out of interest, how has everyone wired their injectors ?

Hi Chris, Just checked, and we're hitting 10ms at 3000-3500 at a bar, but of course you should be able to get 40ms at 3000rpm...

the book definitely *says* it fires once every 2 revs.

I'm doing a 3 litre myself in the not too distant future using a crate engine from Renault - luckily the customer is from Autralia and has arranged a direct purchase so-to-speak!

Any heads-up on decent injectors around the 400+cc range for decent money?

Ford Cosworth (light blue ? - you will need to check) usually don't cost that much but ofcourse they come in 4's. Quite often you find guys selling single Cosworth injectors or however many you require on ebay, etc. Otherwise for new you can usually find Bosch or Siemens injectors for £60 or so each.

[stephendell]

610's run abour 12psi standard, then push 285hp at 15psi (1bar) with no cat on the original ECU, according to Steve's gizmo (did I get that right, Steve?).

Looks that way.

Standard car = 250bhp
De-cat = 265 bhp
De-cat 1 bar = 286bhp

Need to get a decent boost gauge though to check exactly what boost my car is running.

Unfortunately all that bhp only equates to 201bhp per tonne due to the weight increase.

Tony's should be more like 242bhp per tonne with similar output and that would feel significantly quicker.

It's a bit warmer today but I'm a bit hungover so I still might not put the bigger injectors in today ,see how my head feels later .
Could you send me an ish fueling map for the 330cc to replace my 220s Chris ?All this duration talk will have an effect on the map,yes ? I see the Adapt boys are a tad confused as well ...