Ethanol in fuel

[Alpineandy]

Water does not separate out of ethanol in fuel any more than water falls to the bottom of a bottle of vodka.

There's an article in practicle classics which makes some strong comments against this 'E10' fuel.
It also mentions that when ethanol has absorbed some water, it can (if left for a few weeks) separate the ethanol from the petrol.
They're asking the FBHVC to initiate some studies on the effect of E10 on engines and studies into the additives to protect an engine from Ethanol (such as the millers stuff). It makes interesting comments about ethanol containing a higher portion of oxygen and therefore running lean but how it can be re-tuned for E10 however that tends to lead to bore wash...

Water does not separate out of ethanol in fuel any more than water falls to the bottom of a bottle of vodka.

There's an article in practicle classics which makes some strong comments against this 'E10' fuel.
It also mentions that when ethanol has absorbed some water, it can (if left for a few weeks) separate the ethanol from the petrol.
They're asking the FBHVC to initiate some studies on the effect of E10 on engines and studies into the additives to protect an engine from Ethanol (such as the millers stuff). It makes interesting comments about ethanol containing a higher portion of oxygen and therefore running lean but how it can be re-tuned for E10 however that tends to lead to bore wash...

As I said ....much better men than me

[mettersl]

RON value isn't about energy content, its about self ignition point- which is why running 95 or 98 RON in a standard car set up for unleaded will give the same performance. I don't know about GTA's but A610's are only set up for 95 RON as std. My smart roaster is set up for 98 run and lowers the boost when running on 95.
However modified cars with greater boost pressure will benefit as they will be able to run with greater ignition advance and/or boost pressure on the better fuel (assuming it self adjusts or was mapped for it).
I did notice that in France the 95 contained 10% ethanol, so possibly more trouble-so its good thing I will be using up the rest at the weekend on the way to Prescott....The effect of ethanol will depend on the types of rubber used and I don't know if the GTA/A610 has modern rubbers.
Incidentally if you want to ruin a car use bio diesel in an old diesel..... as top gear demonstrated a while ago with a BMW.

RON value isn't about energy content, its about self ignition point- which is why running 95 or 98 RON in a standard car set up for unleaded will give the same performance. I don't know about GTA's but A610's are only set up for 95 RON as std. My smart roaster is set up for 98 run and lowers the boost when running on 95.
However modified cars with greater boost pressure will benefit as they will be able to run with greater ignition advance and/or boost pressure on the better fuel (assuming it self adjusts or was mapped for it).
I did notice that in France the 95 contained 10% ethanol, so possibly more trouble-so its good thing I will be using up the rest at the weekend on the way to Prescott....The effect of ethanol will depend on the types of rubber used and I don't know if the GTA/A610 has modern rubbers.
Incidentally if you want to ruin a car use bio diesel in an old diesel..... as top gear demonstrated a while ago with a BMW.

It was my understanding that most Renix ECU's are self learining eg they set themselves up for your driving style eg average out the settings most required when being driven. I believe the car has a knock sensor so the ECU will automatically advance the engine and back it off according to the knock sensor. Therefore the higher the octane rating of the fuel the later the knock will occur and the ECU therfore runs more advance.

Different set of circumstances for my Atmo tho' 2 bits of string and a lever one to advance and one to retard and another lever to pump the fuel

This is just my understanding if the ECU is set up to run a maximum advance I'll be advised differently?

cheers si21

My smart roaster is set up for 98 run and lowers the boost when running on 95.

This I didn't know. ours has been re-mapped by a previous owner (goes like the clappers) and it gets better mileage and feels quicker on SUL.It definitely loves the Tesco 99 ron. 73,000 miles and counting on the original engine. ...

Incidentally if you want to ruin a car use bio diesel in an old diesel..... as top gear demonstrated a while ago with a BMW.

That has more to do with quality of process than biodiesel per se. I fully intend to set up my own processor after we've moved in July... Maybe you'll too prove me wrong

[mettersl]

Simon,
My understanding is that the MOST aggressive map used on the A610 corresponds to 95 RON, if you run it on poor fuel, it retards from this "best position" when it gets knock. I don't think it advances more than a defined position-sounds like we are both right. M Faulks will know for sure.
If you frig the boost controls to get more pressure, the STD ECU is mapped for some more boost but will still retard the ignition to prevent knock if that occurs. As more boost increases the chance of knock that makes sense.
No idea on the GTA though (or the T2).

Cheers
Lee

[Alpineandy]

Incidentally if you want to ruin a car use bio diesel in an old diesel..... as top gear demonstrated a while ago with a BMW.

Not automotive, but quite interesting (IMO);
BIOFUEL DIESEL MICROBE IS THREAT TO BOAT OWNERS, INSURER WARNS
The increased use of biodiesel has also increased the chance that boats will be affected with so-called Diesel Bug, warns UK yacht and motorboat insurer Navigators & General, a subsidiary of Zurich Financial Services. Navigators noted that since a recent EU Directive, boat owners have been required to use a marine diesel "with significantly reduced levels of sulphur, and one of the ways this is being achieved is through the addition of Biodiesel". However, there are more than 20 species of fuel microbes that create fungal spores - the most common of which is Cladisporum resinae. Infestation can clog filters, narrow fuel lines and eventually cause engine failure. Navigators said that it had seen a number of pump failures probably caused by a seal breakdown. In the longer term it recommends that boat owners eventually retro-fit seals and pipes with materials that are resistant to any microbes in Biofuels, although in the short term the insurer recommends that boat owners try to avoid using fuel with Biodiesel or fatty acid methyl ester (FAME) additives.

Simon,
My understanding is that the MOST aggressive map used on the A610 corresponds to 95 RON, if you run it on poor fuel, it retards from this "best position" when it gets knock. I don't think it advances more than a defined position-sounds like we are both right. M Faulks will know for sure.
If you frig the boost controls to get more pressure, the STD ECU is mapped for some more boost but will still retard the ignition to prevent knock if that occurs. As more boost increases the chance of knock that makes sense.
No idea on the GTA though (or the T2).

Cheers
Lee

I understood this to be the case with the 19 16v and the 21 Turbo all off roughly the same period. I have to say to compliment your angle I never ever thought I felt any beneft using the higher grade fuel, but due to the fact I run 18psi about 4.5 psi more than standard on my 21 then the better octane rating will be more reliable, stopping pre det rather than more power. It was often argued in the 21TOC that by turning the boost up too much on the standard turbo just caused too much heat increasing the risk of detonation; the ECU then just retarded the ignition so extra heat and risk for no real power gain.

Martin put us out of our misery whats the story here?

Si21

PS Martin have finally found manual do you still need the info PM me what you require and I'll see if I can help.

si21

[mettersl]

https://www.whatcar.com/advice/owning/e ... you/n18069
https://classicsworld.co.uk/news/potent ... e-in-2020/
https://www.gov.uk/government/consultat ... e10-petrol

So an update folks, the government is currently consulting on replacing the E5 (5% ethanol fuel) that we have in the UK with E10 (10% ethanol). France has E5 as premium, but standard fuel is E10 already. Not sure about other countries.
This is all about reducing CO2 emissions on existing vehicles (apparently).
Its a good time to take a few minutes and respond to the government consultation and if it goes through to choose the E5 fuel .
There is a possibility that E5 will remain available from large volume stations for a period (but maybe only 2021), as many 2000 onwards cars may be impacted by this change, but we need to lobby now for this (link above).


When (if) it goes through it will definitely impact the flexible fuel lines which may deteriorate. It will mean that the flexible pipes in the car may need renewal or at least watching.
I guess fuel filters, fuel pressure regulators and any non metal parts in contact with the fuel can be impacted too. It seems that the GTA fuel tanks are ok, judging by other posters in the past.

On top of this it loosens deposits and "cleans" the system.
As I have had problems with my long inactive GTA stirring up deposits in the system and sticking in unfortunate places, despite multiple filters, if this frees up more crud, I can look forward to more blocked idle jets.

Get your pen (or keyboard) out now and lobby for continued E5 availability...

Lee is correct it definitely will clean out your fuel lines and make jelly out of your rubber stuff. So for those with injection it’s not just the pipes it’s your injectors which have quite a few bits in them which will get effected, when I had my 610 I had all the injectors re dun and the flexible lines.
The best stuff is s/s braided PTFE pipe, but it’s not cheap and the fittings have to be put on by proper machine. Just had them made for my Rally Citroen £160 but it is rated to 220c and 200 Bar

For the time being you can still use Esso super unleaded if you want no ethanol....

The majority of unleaded 95 Octane petrol sold in the UK contains up to 5% ethanol as required under the Government’s Renewable Transport Fuels Obligation (RTFO).

There is currently no requirement for renewable fuel (such as ethanol) to be present in super unleaded (97 grade petrol).

Esso super unleaded petrol (Synergy Supreme+ Unleaded 97) is ethanol free (except in Devon, Cornwall, the Teesside area and Scotland). We would therefore advise anyone who has concerns about the presence of ethanol in petrol to use Synergy Supreme+ – providing they do not fill up in Devon or Cornwall, the Teesside area or Scotland.

If you have the time, the storage and the patience.........

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HdDEL7WLN5U